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Jay Friedland
Cowie/GB storm clouds
2019-06-07; 11:30:59 EDT
Member Since
2002-08-24
Posts: 356
My son, Justin, started sailing at 7 on an Optimist in active sail racing, now 33, and took the helm of our R22 standing on the seat. At 10 & beyond, I brought him to a few of the Atlantic City Boat Shows when I was working Stan’s booth. He, with great enthusiasm, did demos & worked with us pulling the IMF out and furling it in, convincing many on-lookers to consider it even more. He became a fine-tuned sailor on a championship high school sailing team competing nationally in Charleston, SC, and Lake Pontchartrain, LA. Now he’s a half-partner with me, originally earning more sailing time proportional to the percent of prep work & maintenance he did each year on our first R22 (Just, You & Me), now our 2nd. Wanderlust, a ’97 vintage gets a very demanding workout, often 800-1,100 nm clocked each year, and in some of the strongest & steadiest winds, on the east coast, even in freezing rain, surfing down large rollers as he posted on our final trip last year. I get afternoon sailing time, during the week, he gets evenings, sunsets and beyond. It is hard to sail together when you have 2 captains, but we always work it out and learning from each other. His sail racing experience has Justin seeing/feeling and adjusting for the next 3 coming wind shifts, which I still can’t fathom. In any case, a kid and a sailboat is magic wherever it leads. Chris G., one of my regrets looking back, is the opportunity you offered me to help your son’s boat prepped in Greece. If only... “There is nothing- absolutely nothing- half so much worth doing as simply messing about in boats”, unless, of course, you can get your kid involved at any age. Father’s Day is a great time to enjoy it. Jay Friedland S/v Wanderlust ‘97See the original archive post
> On Jun 7, 2019, at 10:51 AM, Chris Geankoplis <chrisgeankoplis at gmail.com> wrote: > > And you keep the kids involved. Lots of sailing to look forward to. > > Chris G > ENOSIS > > On Fri, 7 Jun 2019 at 15:15, Goodness <spreadgoodnews at gmail.com> wrote: > >> Thanks Chris! >> >> Yes i will continue to encourage him. We are going sailing on fathers day. >> >> I am sharing with him my secret for restoring a boat. “Do one thing every >> day to or for the boat”. Doesnt have to be big though those days are >> needed, it can be as simple as ordering a part or picking up a tube of >> butyl rubber, epoxy or a box of SS screws. He is intrigued for sure. >> >> He finally figured out which way to twist a screwdriver! His younger >> brother on the other hand can swap an engine. Go figure! >> >> Exciting times! >> >> >> >> Keep sailing the dream Chris!!! >> >> >> >> Bob (Palatka) >> >> >> >>> On Jun 6, 2019, at 3:02 AM, Chris Geankoplis <chrisgeankoplis at gmail.com> >> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> ..... >> >>> Congratulations on your success with passing on your love of sailing and >> >>> the Rhodes to the next generation. Encourage him to think big goo. I did >> >>> the same dith my so and he has become a great sailor and accomplished >> >>> Rhodie. While a teenager he sailed dith friends on the Rhodes in the San >> >>> Juan’s and Mexico. Besides get a kid involved is restoring a boat and he >> >>> will stay ofc drugs and booze ........there won’t be the money for those >> >>> (grin). >> >>> >> >>> Chris Geankoplis >> >>> ENOSIS >> >>> >> >>>> On Thu, 6 Jun 2019 at 01:37, Goodness <spreadgoodnews at gmail.com> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>> Out of curiosity who pays the web host fee for Rhodes22.org? They are >> the >> >>>> real owner of the list! >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> On a side note yesterday my 16 year old finally snapped out of it, put >> >>>> down his cell phone and came out to the Rhodes! He was amazed he could >> lie >> >>>> down and stretch out in the berth (He is 6’3”)! He started looking >> around >> >>>> and said “This thing is really cool!” I cant wait till you go out again >> >>>> cause i want to sail too!!! (He is a decent sunfish sailor) He then >> started >> >>>> mentioning that the styling of the R-22 was “sick” (meaning more >> awesome) >> >>>> than other boats. >> >>>> >> >>>> Then he started walking around my “parts boat” and decided he could “fix >> >>>> it and sail” (i gave him the book by that title!!). >> >>>> >> >>>> So BAM!! A new Rhodie was born yesterday! >> >>>> >> >>>> I predicted last week that the new generation would figure this out >> >>>> eventually, >> >>>> >> >>>> But had no idea it would be my own son!!! >> >>>> >> >>>> ??? >> >>>> >> >>>> Ha! >> >>>> >> >>>> So now is the conundrum. Didn’t Stan say last week my son cant be a >> >>>> Rhodie since he cut off the certificate of support? I have one so i >> guess i >> >>>> can transfer it? Thoughts? >> >>>> >> >>>> ? >> >>>> >> >>>> Rhodes 22 forever! >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> Bob (Palatka) >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> On May 28, 2019, at 3:33 PM, Michael Corley <michael.4591 at gmail.com> >> >>>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> I am with Stan on this issue. Been a Rhodes owner and Stan loyalist >> >>>> since >> >>>> >> >>>>> 1996. I absolutely trust him and sincerely hope he can find an active >> >>>> >> >>>>> partner to help with GB. Seems to me that Chris C. and his company are >> >>>> >> >>>>> just trying to squeeze Stan out! >> >>>> >> >>>>> Great to hear again from MJM; wasn't sure you were still out there. >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> Mike Corley >> >>>> >> >>>>> S/V Ranger >> >>>> >> >>>>> Hampton Roads >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>> On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 1:49 PM Charles Nieman < >> >>>> blue66corvette at hotmail.com> >> >>>> >> >>>>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> I do not disagree with the premise presented here....and I do not have >> >>>> any >> >>>> >> >>>>>> real interest....but, it should be noted... >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> This list is not the property of nor supported by General Boats .... >> >>>> fro >> >>>> >> >>>>>> what I have been able to tell over the years of being involved with >> this >> >>>> >> >>>>>> list, Stan has never nurtured this list and only occasionally will he >> >>>> >> >>>>>> respond to the list, but I THINK he does "listen" to the postings here >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> ... it is my understanding that this list is an open exchange of >> >>>> >> >>>>>> information between people who own a Rhodes 22, want to own a Rhodes >> >>>> 22, or >> >>>> >> >>>>>> have other interest in a Rhodes 22. I think Chris Cowie qualifies >> under >> >>>> a >> >>>> >> >>>>>> least two of those points. >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> Sent from Outlook<http://aka.ms/weboutlook> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> ________________________________ >> >>>> >> >>>>>> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> on behalf of >> >>>> Bob >> >>>> >> >>>>>> Garrant <bgarrant at gmail.com> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, May 28, 2019 11:15 AM >> >>>> >> >>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List >> >>>> >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cowie/GB storm clouds >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> My $0.1 from Kent Island, Chesapeake Bay >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> I fell in love with the Rhodes 22 when I stepped onto the vessel at >> the >> >>>> >> >>>>>> 2005 Annapolis Boat Show, and test sailed it with Stan during the same >> >>>> >> >>>>>> show. >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> I understand that competition has arrived but I am concerned about >> >>>> using a >> >>>> >> >>>>>> mailing list that was nurtured by General Boats over 50+ years and >> >>>> marketed >> >>>> >> >>>>>> at boat shows around the US, including the first Annapolis Sailboat >> >>>> Show in >> >>>> >> >>>>>> 1970. The cost of marketing can be a significant barrier to entry >> >>>> against >> >>>> >> >>>>>> an established brand. Using a competitor’s existing customer base and >> >>>> >> >>>>>> mailing list avoids these costs, so I would expect that the ‘right >> >>>> thing’ >> >>>> >> >>>>>> to do would be to compensate GB for any Rhodes-related sales and >> >>>> services. >> >>>> >> >>>>>> It’s not clear to me whether that arrangement has been made. >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> As a side note, I’ve sailed around the Chesapeake Bay for the last 15 >> >>>> >> >>>>>> years, after moving in 2003 to a neighborhood just up from Annapolis >> on >> >>>> the >> >>>> >> >>>>>> Severn River. We moved across the Bay to Kent Island in 2018 and we >> were >> >>>> >> >>>>>> very surprised last September when a dozen dolphins played around us >> >>>> while >> >>>> >> >>>>>> we tacked across the Chester River. I suspect it was the beauty of the >> >>>> >> >>>>>> Rhodes 22 hull that attracted them. Especially since some of these >> >>>> dolphins >> >>>> >> >>>>>> appeared to have stopped over in Edenton on the way to the Chesapeake. >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> Regards, >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> Bob, s/v 2000 Sail la Vie >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> On Tue, May 28, 2019 at 11:36 AM Goodness <spreadgoodnews at gmail.com> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> $ 0.02 from Florida >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> I really think all of this talk is in poor taste. Stan is very much >> >>>> >> >>>>>> alive >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> and still active CEO of a great boat company. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> Life constantly reminds me that no one is guaranteed tomorrow. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> My motto is “treat everyone like its your last day and theirs!” >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> I am an active certificate of support member having paid my >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> penalty/membership to Stan who graciously allowed me to give him >> money >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> after buying my boat from a sailboat graveyard in Georgia. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> When i needed a replacement hatch i couldnt get one without driving >> to >> >>>> >> >>>>>> the >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> factory as it was too large to ship. But as serendpity would have >> it, >> >>>> i >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> bought another failing vessel with a functioning hatch before i made >> >>>> the >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> drive. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> Now we all wish there was a website where we could order parts to >> keep >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> things operational right!!!??? >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> ... but Stan being a capitalist in the full sense of the word >> (despite >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> claiming to be a socialist lol) decided it best to let the boats age >> >>>> out >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> and be repurchased for recycling. Its a brilliant idea especially >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> considering GB was only a “one design” company (i know there was a >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> prototype). Also in His defense he does occasionally fill and ship >> an >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> order for soft and small parts. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> This business tactic probably profited the same as a parts store. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> Competition has arrived...it is inevitable. Competitors in the same >> >>>> >> >>>>>> market >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> often dont do well so i cant see that there is much money in this >> >>>> >> >>>>>> endeavor >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> so be not dismayed. Another issue is the fate of the abandoned R22’s >> >>>> >> >>>>>> that >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> have the thick heavy hulls that are not suitable for the recycling >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> program. I love all boats and hate to see them go to the dump. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> But all of this rambling brings me to my next statement to Stan....if >> >>>> you >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> are still reading. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> Stan! Keep eating organic and live to be 120!! >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> Lets redesign the keel into a ballasted diamond board and put a >> >>>> >> >>>>>> rudderpost >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> in the cockpit drain area and mount a 30-40 hp honda on the midline >> and >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> show MacGregor that your power sailer is superior to his 26 and >> looks >> >>>> >> >>>>>> much >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> better! It would sell like hotcakes and sail like an R22! After all >> >>>> >> >>>>>> that >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> WAS your idea! >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> Bob (Palatka) >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> On May 26, 2019, at 4:43 PM, Art Czerwonky via Rhodes22-list < >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> It is probably an opportune time for me to get into the fray. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> I cannot imagine the sale of GB to anyone under any circumstances, >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> fellow skippers, no discredit to anyone. I suspect the business will >> >>>> >> >>>>>> pass >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> to Stan's daughter through his will. My suggestion would be to drive >> to >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> B'more and see if you want to be her business partner. You may find >> >>>> she >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> has little intention of becoming the CEO, therefore creating this >> >>>> option. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Remember that time flies. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Art Czerwonkys/v MaryJane (soon available) >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Sent from Yahoo Mail on Android >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> On Sun, May 26, 2019 at 8:51 AM, michael meltzer< >> >>>> >> >>>>>> mjm at michaelmeltzer.com> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> wrote: Considering my bottom painting just got rained out. What >> going >> >>>> >> >>>>>> on >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> here? >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> Anyone have a summary (no axes to grind please), been following but >> >>>> not >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> understanding >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> On Sat, May 25, 2019, 9:28 PM Todd Tavares <sprocket80 at mail.com> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I've been on the list probably longer than most. The new admins >> keep >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> bouncing my emails saying my freebie email must be sent as plain >> text >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> instead HTML. I hope this email gets through, because I can't stand >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> Nabble. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I'm a nice guy most of the time but I can be quite abrasive at >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> times...just ask Roger P (welcome back BTW). And this email will >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> probably >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> cost me a few friends here too but I don't care . My 2 cents; which >> >>>> is >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> more >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> vinegar than sugar: >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I first got on list before we left Sailnet and MJM started this >> list >> >>>> >> >>>>>> for >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> us Rhodies, so I've been here since before the beginning. Early on >> I >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> bumped >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> heads with Stan and got grilled by a few of the hardcore >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Rhodies...especially Rummy (may he rest in peace). I went off >> because >> >>>> >> >>>>>> of >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Stan's reluctance to stop the production line to field my calls and >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> parts >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> requests. Stan made a comment to the effect of 'I'm not in the >> parts >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> business so go talk to the guy you bought the boat from. Why >> should I >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> stop >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> trying to make money to help out someone who has never put one dime >> >>>> in >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> my >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> pocket?' This is partly the genesis for the Certificate of Support >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> program. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I had never dealt with a struggling "one-off" organization before, >> >>>> >> >>>>>> but I >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> eventually understood the mindset and now I have to step up and >> >>>> defend >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> Stan. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I'm sure he'd love to sell his business and finally retire...before >> >>>> he >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> turns 100 or reaches his "expiration date". I thought about making >> >>>> him >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> this >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> offer--- I wouldn't buy his business or infuse any cash. But I >> could >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> drive >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> down to Edenton bimonthly or so and tell him how to run the >> business >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> better, in exchange for him giving me the business and property in >> >>>> his >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> Will >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> or something like that. Unfortunately though...somebody had already >> >>>> >> >>>>>> made >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> him that offer. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> CC's endeavor is his own and I wish him luck. But Charles's >> >>>> supportive >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> email and choice of phrases are ironic. I'm at a loss to understand >> >>>> >> >>>>>> how >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> a >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> directly competing business, especially one advertising HERE, is >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> supposed >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> to put one dime in Stan's pocket? Is that how you perpetuate a >> >>>> >> >>>>>> brand? b >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Competing and taking business by soliciting to the list members >> >>>> who've >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> supported Stan for so long? I'll stop just short of saying this is >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> Stan's >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> list, but we started it to drive interest in the Rhodes 22 and >> we've >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> promoted General Boats with some success. CC's business may >> >>>> certainly >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> propel OUR interests in (your) Stan's invention" but it is >> certainly >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> not a >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> faithful "continuation of the brand"? >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I'm sorry if this offends anyone, and I don't want to make enemy of >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> Chris >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> or Charles, but this is not the place to be asking for or looking >> for >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> support to cripple the struggling business of the aged Admiral of >> our >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> fleet. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Todd Tavares (Todd T.) >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Sent: Saturday, May 25, 2019 at 7:17 PM >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> From: "Charles Nieman" <blue66corvette at hotmail.com> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> To: "The Rhodes 22 Email List" <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Cowie/GB storm clouds >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Stan; >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> I would normally not make any public comment in a situation such as >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> this, >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> but you have asked. I support what CC is doing and think it >> actually >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> helps >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> to propel our interests in your invention. You have not provided >> any >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> evidence of any solid plan for the continuation of the brand. And >> >>>> >> >>>>>> while >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> your longevity is amazing (but I’m pretty certain you do have an >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> expiration >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> date as the rest of us do, if I’m wrong here I applaud you but >> could >> >>>> >> >>>>>> you >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> please share some insight and some evidence) there needs to be some >> >>>> >> >>>>>> plan >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> for the future. It appears to me that CC is attempting to provide >> >>>> >> >>>>>> such. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> He >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> therefore will receive the same support from me that you have. I >> wish >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> both >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> endeavors all possible success. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Charles >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> 98 R 22 >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> s/v DayDreams >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Joe Pool Lake, DFW Texas >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> On May 25, 2019, at 4:24 PM, stan <stan at generalboats.com> wrote: >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> For 50 years Rhodes owners have been our sales force and our board >> >>>> of >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> directors. So before we submit a book size White Paper response to >> >>>> >> >>>>>> Chris >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> Cowie's "new" business, made clear by the following two emails, we >> >>>> >> >>>>>> feel >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> we >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> should give voice to the cooler collective heads of the List, >> before >> >>>> a >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> declaration of war: >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> "/Hi Chris, / >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> /Rumor (Ted) has it that you may know of used Rhodes 22s for sale >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> especially in the Mid Atlantic region. My wife Emily and I are >> >>>> >> >>>>>> seriously >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> hot to trot! Jeff: Contact me//**//via email - we//**//have several >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> refurbished Rhodes 22 ready to sail."/ >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> If you own, or are thinking of buying a Rhodes, what is happening >> >>>> >> >>>>>> here >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> truly affect your interests. Any and all input from the List will >> be >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> thoughtfully responded to. >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> thanks for hearing, >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> stan >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>>>> >> >>>> >> >>>> >> >>
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