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2022-02-11; 20:00:34 EST
Member Since
2004-04-05
Posts: 2046
Looking forward to hearing all about it. Chris G.See the original archive post
On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 5:39 PM Jesse Shumaker < jesse.laten.shumaker at gmail.com> wrote: > Some additional context about lithium batteries... > > I'm not an expert on this but it's my understanding that the lithium > batteries posing the most risk are lithium ion polymer batteries, which are > infamous for the incidents that Roger mentioned. The lithium batteries > that have become more popular for house battery banks on boats (and camper > vans and other off grid setups) in recent years are lithium iron phosphate > (LiFePO4). Compared to the lithium ion polymer batteries, LiFePO4 are less > energy dense and safer. LiFePO4 batteries have a battery management system > onboard which can shutdown the battery if it detects a problem - of course > this does rely on more sophisticated systems rather than the simplicity of > more traditional batteries. There's quite a bit of information available > on LiFePO4 online (of course some of that is hype). > > People tend to stick with more traditional cranking batteries for their > starter on engines since they are built for that purpose. However, the > electric start on my outboard has a small enough draw that my new battery > should handle that fine. > > I did a fair amount of research in this area since part of my winter > projects were to swap out my two Group 27 flooded lead acid batteries for a > single 100 amp hour LiFePO4 battery made by Renogy. Along with this, I got > a new charger that has a charging profile for lithium. I also got the > bluetooth transmitter so I can see the state of the battery easily. I also > put in a 30 watt solar panel on the stern, added renogy charge controllers, > added a battery monitor with a shunt and updated a bunch of wiring. > Sometime in a few weeks (maybe March), I'll put together a recap of the > off-season projects including the electrical updates on the boat. > > Part of the motivation was to make it easier to take my battery out each > winter. Each of the group 27 batteries weighed over 55 lbs. My new > battery weighs around 25 lbs. It was a lot more expensive, but it has more > usable power than both of the old batteries together, doesn't require > maintenance, and due to the long lifecycle of the LiFePO4 battery, I don't > anticipate having to buy a new battery for my R22 again. > > There are pros and cons to all the battery types and I'm not trying to > convince anyone of what they should do. My updated setup is overkill and > beyond my needs, but this project was an excuse to learn more about DC > electrical on boats and that's part of the fun of having a boat. I'll > provide some feedback to the list after I've used the new setup more next > season. > > Jesse Shumaker > S/V Zephyr > > On Fri, Feb 11, 2022 at 5:52 AM ROGER PIHLAJA <roger_pihlaja at msn.com> > wrote: > > > Thomas, > > > > Do you remember the lithium battery fires on Samsung Galaxy smartphones > > from a few years ago? They were busting into flames in people’s pockets > > and carry on luggage. Several airlines banned them. The issue is, we > all > > want more and more battery life from our devices and range from our > > electric vehicles. To increase the so called energy density, the lithium > > battery manufacturers are cramming more and more anodes and cathodes > closer > > and closer together in their batteries. These close tolerances makes > them > > more vulnerable to an internal short circuit and a fire. Things like > > vibration, shock, heat, age, repeated charge/discharge cycles, > > overcharging, and collision damage can also trigger an internal short. > > Once an internal short starts, it can trigger a cascading failure wherein > > the stored energy gets turned into heat, which causes more internal > > shorting, more heat, and so on. This kind of fire is very difficult to > > extinguish because the stored energy just keeps reigniting it and there > is > > no way to separate the anodes and cathodes inside the sealed battery. > > Fortunately, lithium battery safety is getting better; but, I just wanted > > to warn people that want to switch over to electric propulsion about this > > issue. As lithium batteries proliferate thru our devices and vehicles > and > > the battery fleet ages, you can expect to see more and more of these > > fires. It’s one thing to burn up your laptop or your car, and quite > > another to burn your boat. At the very least, it could be the start of > “a > > bad day on the water!” > > > > Roger Pihlaja > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > Auxiliary engine powered by geochemically recycled biomass > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > On Feb 10, 2022, at 3:27 PM, ROGER PIHLAJA <Roger_Pihlaja at msn.com> > > wrote: > > > > > > Mike, > > > > > > If your lithium battery is on fire, it might be pretty tough to get it > > loose from the battery mount and then pick it up to throw it overboard! > If > > you could somehow get it overboard; that, would be good for the boat, but > > bad for the environment. Because of the huge amount of stored energy and > > reactivity of lithium/water, I don’t think any commercially available > fire > > extinguisher would work on that type of fire. That’s my whole point. > > Although it’s a low probability event, if your lithium battery starts > > burning, it might be a lose the boat situation. There’s no good way to > put > > something like that out and it’s bolted down so you can’t get rid of it. > > > > > > Roger Pihlaja > > > S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > > > > > Sent from my iPhone > > > > > >> On Feb 10, 2022, at 2:28 PM, Michael D. Weisner <mweisner at ebsmed.com> > > wrote: > > >> > > >> Roger, > > >> > > >> So ... If your Li battery is on fire, tossing it overboard is not > > recommended, even if it saves the boat from burning to the waterline. Is > > there a better recommendation than abandoning ship and watching the boat > > and the battery sink? Is there a good device to extinguish a Li battery > > fire? All I carry is a 10lb ABC extinguisher. > > >> > > >> Mike > > >> s/v Wind Lass ('91) > > >> Nissequogue River, NY > > >> I’d rather be sailing :~) > > >> > > >> -----Original Message----- > > >> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf Of > > ROGER PIHLAJA > > >> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2022 2:11 PM > > >> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> > > >> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Electric Motor > > >> > > >> Hi All, > > >> > > >> To all of you considering switching over to electric propulsion, > > besides all the usual issues regarding electrical connections, corrosion, > > and water; there are some additional precautions associated with > > batteries. Batteries must be securely mounted so they can’t tip over, > > preferably low and near the center of the boat. If lead/acid batteries > get > > dunked in sea water, the sulfuric acid electrolyte and lead sulfide on > the > > plates will react with the sodium chloride in sea water to produce > chlorine > > gas, which is quite toxic. If lead acid batteries are overcharged, they > can > > release hydrogen sulfide gas, which is very smelly and also toxic. More > > modern nickel/lithium batteries use lithium. Lithium is a reactive > alkali > > metal and reacts with water to produce hydrogen gas, which is quite > > flammable. Note, if your lithium battery pack is on fire, do NOT try to > > extinguish the fire with water! You will only make things worse. Modern > > marine batteries are usually sealed against water intrusion; but, > > especially with big battery packs, you need to be aware of what hazards > you > > are carrying. It’s another big energy source that needs to be properly > > handled and respected. > > >> > > >> Roger Pihlaja > > >> S/V Dynamic Equilibrium > > >> > > >> Sent from my iPhone > > >>>> On Feb 10, 2022, at 9:25 AM, Matt Wilson <mwhornblower at gmail.com> > > wrote: > > >>> > > >>> Thanks for the links! > > >>> > > >>> Does anyone have any experience with CNCEST electric outboards? > > >>> Thanks for the help, Matt > > >>> > > >>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 2:29 PM Michael D. Weisner > > >>>> <mweisner at ebsmed.com> > > >>>> wrote: > > >>>> > > >>>> Several discussions have been logged on the list concerning electric > > >>>> propulsion. > > >>>> > > >>>> A discussion about the Torqueedo sizes and capabilities starts at: > > >>>> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Frhode > > >>>> s22.org > %2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2F2020-June%2F084960.html&dat > > >>>> > a=04%7C01%7C%7Cecccd28626554ed06f6808d9eca12725%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb43 > > >>>> > 5aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637800999165434674%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8ey > > >>>> > JWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C30 > > >>>> > 00&sdata=wDOYGqdUtKG9Dkkne5U8vZ7rC5tsVggNlLsYTlFOQII%3D&reser > > >>>> ved=0 You may follow the thread by clicking on the "Next message" > > >>>> links. > > >>>> > > >>>> The above thread was prompted by a discussion the previous month > > >>>> entitled "Torqueedo article" at: > > >>>> > > > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.r%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cf5140ae7545b42940ee408d9ecdc1ff4%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637801252461195511%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=v4Qy%2BCpFZgxJMx8eAdroYbPD1%2FCJKAre5oEhZna7c3k%3D&reserved=0 > > >>>> hodes22.org > %2Fpipermail%2Frhodes22-list%2F2020-May%2F084857.html& > > >>>> > data=04%7C01%7C%7Cecccd28626554ed06f6808d9eca12725%7C84df9e7fe9f640af > > >>>> > b435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637800999165434674%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d > > >>>> > 8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7 > > >>>> > C3000&sdata=riQXhxlo71EyrZS6yOWDTz4BZr91YVxZshpIQluaRlg%3D&re > > >>>> served=0 The original link to the article is bad, but, the German > > >>>> version is still available at: > > >>>> > > >>>> > https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwass > > >>>> erwanderer.de > %2F2020%2F05%2F23%2Fwie-weit-kommt-man-mit-dem-torqeedo- > > >>>> > travel-wirklich%2F&data=04%7C01%7C%7Cecccd28626554ed06f6808d9eca1 > > >>>> > 2725%7C84df9e7fe9f640afb435aaaaaaaaaaaa%7C1%7C0%7C637800999165434674% > > >>>> > 7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6I > > >>>> > k1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000&sdata=n295uejcLnI8feB2%2BzBUtg7o3G0v > > >>>> rNOZ0IykRzpmv6Q%3D&reserved=0 You can translate the text in 5000 > > >>>> character chunks using google translate to get the gist. > > >>>> > > >>>> Mike > > >>>> s/v Wind Lass ('91) > > >>>> Nissequogue River, NY > > >>>> I’d rather be sailing :~) > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On Behalf > > Of > > >>>> Matt Wilson > > >>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 8, 2022 11:46 AM > > >>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> > > >>>> Subject: Re: [Rhodes22-list] Electric Motor > > >>>> > > >>>> Thanks guys, > > >>>> > > >>>> Does anyone on this list has a minimum electric outboard thrust > > >>>> recommendation or specific electric outboard recommendation? Budget > > >>>> matters but since I will be making a claim on a nice motor that is > > >>>> now missing, I have some money to play with. > > >>>> > > >>>> Thank you! > > >>>> Matt > > >>>> > > >>>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 10:17 AM Steve Bauman <sbauman369 at gmail.com > > > > wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>> About 2.5 years ago, I too used a trolling motor for a couple of > > >>>>> weeks while my gas outboard engine was being serviced. It was > maybe > > >>>>> a 50 pound thrust one, the largest I could buy at Walmart at that > > >>>>> time. I found it to be totally inadequate, even just to get me out > > >>>>> of our marina > > >>>> in mild wind. > > >>>>> One time, I literally sailed, making shallow tacking turns, in > > >>>>> addition to having the motor running full blast, to get out. That > > >>>>> being said, I love the idea of changing over to a proper electric > > >>>>> outboard, something I may do for this coming season. > > >>>>> > > >>>>> Steve > > >>>>> Misty Anne > > >>>>> > > >>>>> On Tue, Feb 8, 2022 at 10:30 AM Todd Robinson < > ctrobins at outlook.com> > > >>>>> wrote: > > >>>>> > > >>>>>> I sail on Kerr Lake in NC. When my outboard failed and was going > to > > >>>>>> be in the shop for several months I purchased a Newport L trolling > > >>>>>> motor that provided 62lbs of thrust. I loved how easy and quiet it > > >>>>>> was but it could not handle much wind. Just getting out of the > > >>>>>> marina was challenging when the wind was above 7 knots. It took a > > >>>>>> while for it to get traction to overcome the wind and I started > > >>>>>> worrying that I was not going to make it back to my slip much less > > >>>>>> the lake. However, after going backwards a few slips it dug in and > > >>>>>> I was able to get out and have a great day on the > > >>>>> lake. > > >>>>>> After that, I just went out when it wasn't so windy which probably > > >>>>>> suits > > >>>>> my > > >>>>>> skill level better. When it came time to get the boat out of the > > >>>>>> water, > > >>>>> it > > >>>>>> did not have any trouble getting the boat onto the trailer. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Outboard is repaired and will be the primary this year but I'll > > >>>>>> keep the Newport onboard as a backup. Paddling back when the wind > > >>>>>> dies is > > >>>> not fun. > > >>>>>> If I had the funds, I would love to switch to an electric > outboard. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Disclaimer, I am new to boating so I'm sure a lot of my challenges > > >>>>>> are > > >>>>> due > > >>>>>> to lack of knowledge/experience. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> -----Original Message----- > > >>>>>> From: Rhodes22-list <rhodes22-list-bounces at rhodes22.org> On > Behalf > > >>>>>> Of Matt Wilson > > >>>>>> Sent: Tuesday, February 8, 2022 8:59 AM > > >>>>>> To: The Rhodes 22 Email List <rhodes22-list at rhodes22.org> > > >>>>>> Subject: [Rhodes22-list] Electric Motor > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Hello everyone, > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> I recently had my gas powered motor stolen off my boat in storage > > >>>>>> and am looking for a replacement. I sail on a fairly large lake in > > >>>>>> MN. I am wondering if any of you have used a normal electric > motor > > >>>>>> (trolling > > >>>>> motor) > > >>>>>> in sheltered water and if so, what pounds of thrust? I am mainly > > >>>>>> using > > >>>>> it > > >>>>>> for maneuvering to and from my mooring and dock. I suppose I > would > > >>>>>> occasionally need to get across the lake if the wind died. > > >>>>>> > > >>>>>> Many thanks, > > >>>>>> Matt Wilson > > >>>>>> Hornblower II > > >>>>>> White Bear Lake, MN > > >>>>>> > > >>>>> > > >>>> > > >>>> > > >> > > >
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